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	<title>Comments on: Garbage in = Garbage out</title>
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	<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/</link>
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		<title>By: Garbage In Is&#8230;.Garbage &#124; Daily Pundit</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54404</link>
		<dc:creator>Garbage In Is&#8230;.Garbage &#124; Daily Pundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This guy, Bob Krumm, explains it well. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This guy, Bob Krumm, explains it well. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis boznango</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54394</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis boznango</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If any of those other polls show results for Registered voters, it&#039;d be nice to see them on the chart like you did for Gallup.

Informative work here.

&lt;strong&gt;Ed:&lt;/strong&gt;  &lt;em&gt;I wish that they did.  That would remove more subjectivity.  Yesterday&#039;s poll from National Journal gave us the count of adults, but it didn&#039;t give us the results of how they would vote.&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If any of those other polls show results for Registered voters, it&#8217;d be nice to see them on the chart like you did for Gallup.</p>
<p>Informative work here.</p>
<p><strong>Ed:</strong>  <em>I wish that they did.  That would remove more subjectivity.  Yesterday&#8217;s poll from National Journal gave us the count of adults, but it didn&#8217;t give us the results of how they would vote.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Carl W. Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54245</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl W. Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 12:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not the ultimate polling wonk, but I&#039;m learning quickly.  Please add me to your mailing list.    .....................CWE]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not the ultimate polling wonk, but I&#8217;m learning quickly.  Please add me to your mailing list.    &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;CWE</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54059</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 23:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54059</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The percentage of likely voters among registered voters in a pollster&#039;s results is not meant to be a projection of the national turnout.   In order for it to be so, you&#039;d have to assume that the probability of an individual answering a pollster is independent of their probability to vote, which is definitely false. Pollsters have ways of estimating and correcting for this non-response bias, but the end result is that you should not assume that a survey is projecting 80% turnout just because their likely voter sample is 80% of their registered voter sample.

Without that key assumption, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s much of an argument left to be had in this article.

&lt;strong&gt;Ed: &lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;The problem with your counter-argument is that there is ample historical evidence of a social acceptability bias when respondents are asked whether or not they intend to vote.  Corroborating evidence for that is the high likelihood of passing through likely voters screens employed by most polling agencies.  The best polling considers not just your answers, but your level of knowledge--ie., can you name the candidates running for office, your age, income levels, education levels, etc.  Those are factors that in most years are relatively stable among the voting population. (2008 and 1992 may have been recent exceptions to those rules, but 2012 is likely to revert more to historical norms.) 

As for correcting for non-response rates . . . the right way to do it is to query non-responders and then test the hypothesis that their results differ from the sample population you polled.  The cheap way of doing it is to simply weight a non-representative sample, which is the method you implied above.  Most open-source polls use the cheap method.  Only the campaigns are looking at real polls that factor non-responders, not simply weight to account for them.  Garbage in = Garbage out.&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The percentage of likely voters among registered voters in a pollster&#8217;s results is not meant to be a projection of the national turnout.   In order for it to be so, you&#8217;d have to assume that the probability of an individual answering a pollster is independent of their probability to vote, which is definitely false. Pollsters have ways of estimating and correcting for this non-response bias, but the end result is that you should not assume that a survey is projecting 80% turnout just because their likely voter sample is 80% of their registered voter sample.</p>
<p>Without that key assumption, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s much of an argument left to be had in this article.</p>
<p><strong>Ed: </strong> <em>The problem with your counter-argument is that there is ample historical evidence of a social acceptability bias when respondents are asked whether or not they intend to vote.  Corroborating evidence for that is the high likelihood of passing through likely voters screens employed by most polling agencies.  The best polling considers not just your answers, but your level of knowledge&#8211;ie., can you name the candidates running for office, your age, income levels, education levels, etc.  Those are factors that in most years are relatively stable among the voting population. (2008 and 1992 may have been recent exceptions to those rules, but 2012 is likely to revert more to historical norms.) </p>
<p>As for correcting for non-response rates . . . the right way to do it is to query non-responders and then test the hypothesis that their results differ from the sample population you polled.  The cheap way of doing it is to simply weight a non-representative sample, which is the method you implied above.  Most open-source polls use the cheap method.  Only the campaigns are looking at real polls that factor non-responders, not simply weight to account for them.  Garbage in = Garbage out.</em></p>
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		<title>By: PolisciGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54053</link>
		<dc:creator>PolisciGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, but is this the same Bob Krumm who predicted a McCain EC victory just days before the 2008 election? If so, as much as I&#039;d like to agree with your analysis, I think it has to be taken with a massive grain of salt.

&lt;strong&gt;Ed: &lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;Then you should stick around for Part II when I talk about what delusion looks like from the inside.&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but is this the same Bob Krumm who predicted a McCain EC victory just days before the 2008 election? If so, as much as I&#8217;d like to agree with your analysis, I think it has to be taken with a massive grain of salt.</p>
<p><strong>Ed: </strong> <em>Then you should stick around for Part II when I talk about what delusion looks like from the inside.</em></p>
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		<title>By: JustKarl</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54023</link>
		<dc:creator>JustKarl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A nitpick:

Your statement that &quot;the 1,382 &#039;likely&#039; voters they identified out of a poll of 1,764 adults would indicate a voting age population percentage of 78%&quot; is incorrect, inasmuch as the VAP is considerably larger than the pool of registered voters.  That&#039;s why, for your purposes, the chart of FEC data is more relevant.

&lt;strong&gt;Ed:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;I agree that the VAP is a much larger population, but I&#039;m not sure of your point.  BTW, I&#039;ve been engaged in an email exchange with a left-leaning mathematics grad student who isn&#039;t comfortable with the registration numbers being the basis for comparison.  I think there&#039;s merit in that argument.  Thus comparing likely voter poll respondents as a percentage of adults polled with the percentage of the VAP that works would be more accurate.  Unfortunately, only the ABC/WP (78%)  and the AP-GFK (71%) polls give us those numbers.  That is still much higher than even 2008 when turnout as a percentage of the VAP reached its record high in the post-26th Amendment era of about 62%.  &lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A nitpick:</p>
<p>Your statement that &#8220;the 1,382 &#8216;likely&#8217; voters they identified out of a poll of 1,764 adults would indicate a voting age population percentage of 78%&#8221; is incorrect, inasmuch as the VAP is considerably larger than the pool of registered voters.  That&#8217;s why, for your purposes, the chart of FEC data is more relevant.</p>
<p><strong>Ed:</strong> <em>I agree that the VAP is a much larger population, but I&#8217;m not sure of your point.  BTW, I&#8217;ve been engaged in an email exchange with a left-leaning mathematics grad student who isn&#8217;t comfortable with the registration numbers being the basis for comparison.  I think there&#8217;s merit in that argument.  Thus comparing likely voter poll respondents as a percentage of adults polled with the percentage of the VAP that works would be more accurate.  Unfortunately, only the ABC/WP (78%)  and the AP-GFK (71%) polls give us those numbers.  That is still much higher than even 2008 when turnout as a percentage of the VAP reached its record high in the post-26th Amendment era of about 62%.  </em></p>
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		<title>By: JF Isher</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54018</link>
		<dc:creator>JF Isher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was going to say this but I refreshed and saw that I was beaten to it:

The people likely to answer these calls are not representative of the population at large.

I mean, you say that the voters in Ohio are inundated, do you think they&#039;re going to sit through all the crap just to try to get out of listening to all the crap? Pollsters only get a 10 percent response rate. And Rasmussen is often accused of being the outlier because it has been in the past. Also, one word, 2010. 

If anything pollsters are putting too much emphasis on enthusiasm. I&#039;m not going to sit around and take phone calls all day, but I always vote.

However, your article is well-written and thoughtful :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to say this but I refreshed and saw that I was beaten to it:</p>
<p>The people likely to answer these calls are not representative of the population at large.</p>
<p>I mean, you say that the voters in Ohio are inundated, do you think they&#8217;re going to sit through all the crap just to try to get out of listening to all the crap? Pollsters only get a 10 percent response rate. And Rasmussen is often accused of being the outlier because it has been in the past. Also, one word, 2010. </p>
<p>If anything pollsters are putting too much emphasis on enthusiasm. I&#8217;m not going to sit around and take phone calls all day, but I always vote.</p>
<p>However, your article is well-written and thoughtful :)</p>
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		<title>By: Why Most Polls Are Likely Wrong This Year</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54010</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Most Polls Are Likely Wrong This Year</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Bob Krumm explains: Of the recent polls for which I have internal numbers, only Rasmussen’s turnout percentage assumptions are realistic.  The other four polls use a sample that assumes an election turnout of between 86 and 93 percent.  That simply is not going to be the case.  From this small sample it appears that Rasmussen is not the outlier it is often accused of being.  Instead, other polling organizations in the current RCP Average employ a likely voter screen that removes only 7% to 14% of registered voters from the sample pool, when we know that about 30% of registered voters are not going to show up to vote. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bob Krumm explains: Of the recent polls for which I have internal numbers, only Rasmussen’s turnout percentage assumptions are realistic.  The other four polls use a sample that assumes an election turnout of between 86 and 93 percent.  That simply is not going to be the case.  From this small sample it appears that Rasmussen is not the outlier it is often accused of being.  Instead, other polling organizations in the current RCP Average employ a likely voter screen that removes only 7% to 14% of registered voters from the sample pool, when we know that about 30% of registered voters are not going to show up to vote. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54008</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You may have already been accounting for this, but after a quick read, I was wondering whether you accounted for the bias in the data that given the fact that you were willing to sit through the phone survey, you already are more likely to vote than your run-of-the-mill registered voter. What are your thoughts on how that plays into what percent of this subset of the registered voter population is likely to vote (or has already voted)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may have already been accounting for this, but after a quick read, I was wondering whether you accounted for the bias in the data that given the fact that you were willing to sit through the phone survey, you already are more likely to vote than your run-of-the-mill registered voter. What are your thoughts on how that plays into what percent of this subset of the registered voter population is likely to vote (or has already voted)?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2012/10/garbage-in-garbage-out/comment-page-1/#comment-54006</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/?p=2449#comment-54006</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The people likely to answer these calls are not representative of the population at large.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people likely to answer these calls are not representative of the population at large.</p>
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